Talk:Combat Arts
I've created an entry for all the missing ability and reorganised them. I've also removed AP values, I think they should go to Individual skill page, let me know if you want that information in here. Also i've added a Rank of sorts, not sure what the value means yet. Sarmu 19:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC) ::Much better organized by rank (information from the Japanese guide, by any chance?). If AP values are going to the individual page, then shouldn't description go there too? ::Ferret37 19:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC). ::::Yea those stats are from the Japanese guide, I'm still deciding if we should have AP at both places. Also is description changes with every rank? Sarmu 20:15, 6 February 2009 (UTC) ::Description doesn't change with rank, but when (for example) you go to Mighty, it changes to "The art X, modified for strength". ::Interesting thing I noticed when I checked that out. Baulson had Peerless Thunderclap V last time I used him. He's been in the reserves for a while and it's gone back down to Mighty. Didn't know it could do that... ::Ferret37 20:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC). :::: The modifiers depend on the weapon. Therefore they can change when the weapon changes. Merthos 20:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC) The AP has been added, looks better now, also check Knee Splitter for the detail information, still not sure where description should go Sarmu 20:55, 6 February 2009 (UTC) Hmm, looks crowded, just like it did before you started working on it. I'm really not keen on all the AP costs being listed on the main page, it's like a table within a table and not easy on the eye or the head. I'm sure you had a version with AP listed as a range, didn't you? So on the main page you had (eg for basic Knee Splitter) AP as 3-18 instead of 6/6/4/4/3, 12/12/9/9/6, 18/18/15/15/12. I think most people looking at this page would be more interested in the general range of AP than the specific value, which they could get from the individual page if they really wanted to know. For consistency with the rest of the wiki, description should go right at the top of the individual page, which kind of makes it redundant on the main page. As for the individual page format, this is the direction I'd like to see it going - Knee Splitter. I've put in the description, swapped "Mighty" and "Swift" (to give the table a more natural "ranked by damage" look), and added some colour breaks so power tends to red while speed tends to orange. Just my opinion though, if you hate it then feel free to ignore it. Ferret37 03:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC). :: Andrea likes! I like how it gets darker ^_^ though for my screen it's all a shade of pink/red, not orange? Though I suppose it could be a pink/orange. But I very much so agree that this page, currently, is very, very crowded. Andrealinia970 04:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC) Ok got 2 version one without AP and the other one with AP as a range, see which one you like and revert to that version Sarmu 04:40, 7 February 2009 (UTC) Individual page done All individual page are in, hope everyone likes the layout or give some suggestion Sarmu 12:30, 9 February 2009 (UTC) Awesome job. Weapon arts going into their own section, I assume? Ferret37 12:41, 9 February 2009 (UTC). ::Weapon arts can be covered in special arts page, there is not much extra information in the guide, and it will be too hard for me to reference since there is no order. I'll work on mystic art next then maybe item arts. Sarmu 12:49, 9 February 2009 (UTC) Is there anywhere we can explain how to get the different modifiers? (Nimble, Mightly, Swift, Peerless) because even I'm confused how to tell which it is going to be... Andrea 00:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC) Well I'm not too sure, I know each weapon has a hidden value of speed from slow normal to fast, this effect how fast you gain your +1, +2 modifier and what % increase per +1 modifier. I think it also affect the nimble/mighty/swift/peerless. Also what we need is how we gonna add skills like pummel and stuff where you go beyond swift/peerless Sarmu 01:06, 24 February 2009 (UTC) ::There are three different theories for the modifiers: weapon (class), character class or speed vs. strength stat ratio. I don't know which is true. Merthos 08:18, 24 February 2009 (UTC) Weapon Arts further upgrading Apparently there's a "final" rank of upgrades to most(all?) weapon arts. This is in reference to the modifiers for the weapon arts. For instance the final rank of Fleche is Ballestra when it's heavily modified for strength. Fleche heavily modified for speed becomes Redoublement. Not sure how people want to integrate this info. I'm also not 100% sure if these are possible to normally be obtained, as I'm currently just running through my PC game using CE with unrandomizer on (which should mean that I'm gaining the maximum xp possible towards learning weapon arts. I've uploaded pictures of them, but the ones I've found are Fleche - Ballestra/Redoublement, Crush - Pulverize, Twin Gimlet - Jackhammer. Regarding to the final upgrade, I'm thinking of creating a table just with skill name and their upgrade name, that way we can start collecting the data. What still needs confirmed is that if arts like Fleche will go from Mighty->Peerless->Ballestra/Nimble->Swift->Redoublement or Mighty->Ballestra/Nimble->Redoublement Sarmu 15:23, 5 May 2009 (UTC) : It looks like every single combat art can have a final version. Not sure how best to approach the table for the one handed styles since it would make it one big table. Kaply 19:25, 5 May 2009 (UTC) I like the current template for the combat arts in that each combat art has room in the template for its unique name but is there any particular reason for the current order that they are in? As far as I can tell, from both a gameplay point of view and from a "this makes sense" point of view, the ordering at least at rank V is *Normal *Nimble (faster than Normal but costs more AP) *Peerless (more damage than Nimble but usually slower) *Mighty (lower AP cost than Peerless) *Swift (faster than Mighty) For example, I had Boxing the Compass V (same as Peerless Four Winds) and after a bit more use it "upgraded" to Mighty Four Winds V, which according to the table does the same damage and speed but just has lower AP cost so it indeed is an upgrade. I haven't really been keeping track that much but I've never had a Swift modifier "upgrade" to anything else. Ab123 19:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC) :: The weapon being used determines the modifier. Swift also has extra hits on top of being faster. Actually no. Nimble and Swift are speed modifier (act faster), Mighty and Peerless power modifier (more damage) with the later being the better. It is possible to change between speed and power (as you said Peerless to Mighty) but what triggers this (weapon, class, art usage, stats, ...) is unknown so far (afaik). - Merthos 20:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC) From what i've seen so far the upgrade triggers seem to have something to do with the combat order, characters that tend to act before the monsters develop faster arts, while those acting after them (or more likely those that do the finishing blows, but it might be a requirement to act after the monsters too) get stronger ones. I had Rush go from normal to nimble to swift Knee Splitter V and then later back to nimble, normal, and finally mighty. However, after reaching swift, the party menu kept displaying that even though the battle summary said it went to nimble and normal, but it did change to mighty once i got that in the battle summary. Drake178 00:39, 27 May 2009 (UTC) Combat Arts research I did some preliminary research on combat arts upgrading. So far the only weapon i've used on Rush is a Katana (and it's upgrades), and always with a shield, so he only has one-handed arts. I wanted to know how fast combat arts actually upgrade, so i equipped him with the Schiavona and went into Robelia to do some testing. After 10 physical attacks he learns Double Strike, the first 2-handed art. I made a miskate here and started using it, so i have to re-test sometime, but i think the final result will stay the same. After 8 uses of Double Strike and 2 normal attacks (10 physicals in total) he learned Double Strike II. 1 more Double Strike (the reassessed DS II in the battle i learned it), and 19 more normal physicals got him Thunderclap (total 30 physicals since learning DS). That TC, one more DS, and 68 normal attacks learned Cascade Strike (total 70 physicals since learning TC). I ended up with Double Strike II, Thunderclap I, and Cascade Strike I after a total of 110 physical attacks. Breakdown: #Double Strike - after 10 physicals #Thunderclap - after 40 physicals (30 since DS) #Cascade Strike - after 110 physicals (70 since TC) I find it hard to believe that these numbers are the result of luck or coincidence, so i'll research this further when i get a few free hours. Also the total of 10 physicals between DS and DS II looks fishy. Note that the attacks getting dodged or blocked will still count. Also, whenever a new skill is learned, the action of the next round will automatically get reassessed into the action learned in the previous round. Example: you attack 2 monster groups after performing the first 9 attacks with a new weapon, you attack one group on the first round, triggering the 10th physical that learns DS. Now if you select attack for the next round to attack the other monster group, it will automatically get reassessed into DS. If you do it when learning TC, selecting either attack or DS will get reassessed. My experience with other arts (and my gut feeling) suggests that item arts and mystic arts work the same way. The amount of times a physical is performed is saved with the characters as well, if you save your game after 9 physicals and reload any number of times you will always learn DS on the next physical. Anyway, this is just the result of a few hours of testing, so i might have it wrong. I will post updates here when i get around to do some more. Drake178 13:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC) :Item arts are a weird one. Different behaviour with different characters. I've been levelling up Rush & David with Shard Arts, and their leveling isn't the same for the same usage. As you know Shard Arts can only be used one or two at a time until next major story. So you start with Gravity Tempest components after Fornstrand, then after Six Bases you get components for Earth Bind, and so on. With roughly same usage, Rush would level up each Shard Art when only using one at a time, until roughly level III or IV then he will learn the next shard art. David on the other hand for the same usage, won't level up each as fast but will learn more arts from the group. Right now I've got David & Rush with roughly the same Moonlight usage, Rush is at Moonlight III while David at Moonlight II. Rush also has Gravity Tempest/Shockwave/Earth Bind V and Sunflare III. David has Gravity Tempest/Earth Bind V, Shockwave IV and Sunflare II. David has higher usage of shard arts than Rush but lower levels? Right now I have a hunch from what I've gathered that leveling up individual arts is a random event and not based on usage. Where as learning new arts from the group seems to be a more constant event. Mikeyakame 14:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC) :I started a new game and here is the results so far using Rush as character at BR1. :I have a hunch just from looking at both our data, that it uses base2 increments. It took me 8 knee splitter I to learn Knee Spliter II. I had something like 12 normal attack at this point, but on the 9th Knee Splitter I he reassed to Knee Splitter II. Lets go with 2^3 (8) is base for combat arts. so Level III should be 2^3+2^4 = 24 uses of Knee Splitter. I'm getting the vibe normal attacks are what learns new Combat Arts, but repeated use of a single one is what levels it up. :*a counter for wield style basic attack usage (number of time attack is used with that wield style to learn next combat art) :*a counter for combat art specific usage (number of time one art is used to level up to next) :*a counter for wield style total usage (number of times both attack + combat usage that counts towards learning weapon art, where normal attack gives smaller XP than combat art attack) :Mystic arts seem to behave the same kind of. Usage of any mystic art has a counter, ie. I used 1 x Mystic Missile + 1 x Orphic Ward and I learnt Bluff II! But for Spark -> Spark II it required 8 uses of Spark I. So perhaps the following: :*a counter for global mystic art usage which randomizes the mystic art out of all the lowest level arts that is chosen to be levelled up (explains Bluff I -> II when hadn't used any psionics), :*a counter for spell specific mystic art usage (level up a single spell) :*a counter for mystic art group specific usage (learn new art from that group) :Tell me what you think Drake from your experience. Also take a look at Item Arts talk page I did a table there too and I can already see a pattern of learning/leveling. Mikeyakame 10:25, 6 June 2009 (UTC) ::First off, i'm on XBOX, and without New Game Plus, testing Item and Mystic requires a lot of special preparation for me, so i can't say much on these at the moment. As far as i can remember the Herb Art progression for Rush was about the same as what you put down on the item arts page though. As for mystic, all of your points seem right, but i wonder how random Rush's Mystic Chance is. I know i've leveled almost everything by using only Caustic Blast V, but i never recorded the amount of uses it took for a mystic chance to appear, and it may also be modified by the variety of mystic arts he uses (ie. get a mystic chance for 2 different or 5 of the same). With New Game+ you can test this by redoing Mystic Missile + Orphic Ward to see if it gets you an upgrade somewhere every time (and if its the same upgrade every time). ::I also had another round of combat arts testing, and i'm positive it's not base2 numbers all the way (right now it looks like (8*rank)-1 for higher ranked arts, but im still testing). Also it seems that you need less normal attacks to learn the next ranked art than if you're using only combat arts, i learned Thunderclap with 29 normal attacks vs 36 Double Strikes (however i also had Nimble DS III by the time i got it). Since at higher ranks you need significantly more uses to learn something and i'm running the chance of miscounting i'm doing everything at least twice to make sure i got the numbers right. :::edit: scratch the normal attack vs combat art difference, after finding the reassess 'bug' (and maybe i miscounted as well) it takes 29 Double Strikes to learn Thunderclap just as it takes 29 normal attacks. ::One thing i'm sure of is that there is no random element involved (everything is either data based or formula based), apart from the mystic chance for Rush, and maybe the nimble/mighty upgrades. At any point during the Thunderclap and Cascade Strike testing if i inserted 8 Double Strikes i invariably got Double Strike II regardless of what else i was doing in the meantime and how my other arts were ranked. :::edit: scratch the nimble/mighty, it seems to upgrade on the 22th use. Might also be a weapon specific number, i'll test that out shortly. update1: nope, it's not weapon specific, reloading a save with 19 Cascade Strikes and switching to a Bluedrake Spear still got me the nimble at 22 (and the CS II at 23). I'll find a strength modifier spear and see what happens with that. update2: switching to a Warlord's Lance from the same save actually got me Cascade Strike II at 22, however restarting the counter with the same weapon got Mighty at 22 and CS II at 23, same as previously. ::One thing that got me a bit confused is that i saved the game after 60 normal attacks after learning Thunderclap (i already know it takes 71 to learn Cascade Strike at this point). I got CS after 11 more attacks, and it took 12 Double Strikes (which was expected). However, it only took 11 Thunderclaps, which i thought should be at least 12 but more likely 13. I'll put down some numbers into the table and come back when i double-tested some more. ::I also want to know if it's enough to just have the action in the queue, or if parry or omnistrike counts as an attack, and things like that, but i'll fill these out as i go. What i know already is that if you have an art in the queue and you get blacked out before performing it, that will not count. Battle Chain and linking battles has no effect whatsoever. Fighting rares surprisingly makes no difference either. Drake178 00:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC) :::Rares tend to have more HP though, giving your more actions per-fight, so on a "normal" play-through I'm sure the average sees more skillups on rares and assumes some connection. Still Unchained 14:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC) ::True, and i have a hunch it's the same for bosses, but until i test it i can't say for certain. I also think critical triggers have no effect on skillups, but i haven't tested that one yet either. What i do know is that reassessed skills hinder your progress, although you get them for free (no AP cost) they do not increase the count (or in special cases even decrease it, as written a few lines below). Drake178 14:52, 9 June 2009 (UTC) :::Yeah, probably just a bug where the code that bumps the counter never runs in that instance. If the speculations about switching from one art to another have any ground, that could be what you're seeing here, causing the double-whammy where it actually decreases it. Have you checked to be sure the counter for the original non-reassessed art isn't going up? :::Hrm, thinking about that...could it have to do with handed-ness of the weapons equipped? Like swapping equipment resets all of the counters? I haven't done your kind of exhaustive testing, but I'm pretty sure I've seen my characters that have multiple grips sometimes change the grip even before using a mystic art (even to heal). Still Unchained 15:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC) ::I'm only testing 2-handed right now so there's no messing with wield styles. I also don't see it happen (or just didn't record it) when it changes from one art to another, it's only bugged when it's an upgrade of the same art. Since the counter does not increase for the executed art i'm assuming it's a double-run of the code that decreases the counter for the original. Then again, i always end every battle with spells as soon as an upgrade happens, so i never see any reassessing when i'm actually counting. As for swapping equipment resetting counters i swap my accessories constantly (i'm testing with Rush only and it takes some tinkering to do a specific AP cost art often enough), it never reset any counters as far as i'm aware of. Also switching the Schiavona to other spears did not reset any counters i was keeping track of. Drake178 16:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC) I can add that i had Glenys learned simultaneously Helm Split and Moonset without her ever using Power Grip!--Burglefloogah 23:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC) :Yeah i had Emmy learn Dragon's Tail and Cross Slice at the same time as well. Although when you select a command chain with a basic attack in it for Glenys, she'll use Power Grip as default, rather than One-Handed (or at least she does for me), since her offhand is empty. She only seems to use one-handed if you specifically select a one-handed combat art for her. Either way, both of these arts are weapon specific (same with Emmy) so it makes sense for them to be learned at the same time so long as both wield types are available. Drake178 00:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC) ::Should also note that only basic attack commands level up weapons too. I could never figure out why my party members all had +1/+2 etc weapons and Rush took forever to get them, now I understand. I managed to +1 both Katana's in Dual Wield in about 2 or 3 BR's, and +1 a Broadsword in 2 BR's simply by using attack instead of combat arts. I've given up counting the attacks after filling pages of numbers up and recalculating every time I die. Hard mode at the beginning of the game is the wrong time to be doing this kind of thing, especially using Mystic Seal formation. On the bright side at BR12 (Just visited Elysion) I've managed to learn way too herbs for this early in the game. Currently I have: Restorative Herb V, Life Powder IV, Vivification Herb II, Restorative Tincture, Vivification Tincture. All from basically using Restorative Herb, Life Powder & Vivification Herb. David has: Restorative Herb V, Vivification Herb II, Life Powder, Restorative Tincture. It's too early in my game to use both Tinctures as I don't have components for them yet. Mikeyakame 05:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC) :I'll do the counting (and double-do it too), i'm fairly sure it's the same on the XBOX and the PC, but you can check that by testing the beginning of the 2-handed tree and see if it matches. Unfortunately using the Schiavona won't get me anywhere on the + count i'm afraid, i'll do that some other time. On a side note, hp upgrades seem to be somewhat constant, while other stats seem to be random chances. Drake178 05:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC) ::Now here's a weird thing: instead of adding to the count, reassessing seems to actually deduct from it. Example: using the same weapon all the way, Double Strike II upgrades to Nimble after 14 uses. Now if you end the battle there, it takes 4 uses of Nimble Double Strike II to learn Nimble Double Strike III. However if, on the next round you use a physical that gets reassessed into Nimble DS II, it will take that, and then 5 more to learn the next rank (for a total of 6 instead of 4). This seems to affect everything where a combat art is being reassessed into basically the same art (normal -> nimble/mighty, rank I -> rank II), but not reassessing into a newly learned art (Double Strike -> Thunderclap). Drake178 10:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC) :Yep I've experienced same thing. I think there is a bonus for using one art straight, when you break up its usage it's like you're breaking a chain, and thus takes longer to learn. Maybe there is a chain bonus for learning arts :) If I do one art straight turn after turn, I learn next level really fast. If I switch between multiple arts then it takes me a lot longer to learn the next level of the art. Last game when I was trying to level up Mighty Dragon's Tail IV to V and simultaneously level up Mighty Victory Sweep II to III, I was switching between the two and using mystic arts in between that, and It took forever to level either up. Only when I used Mighty Victory Sweep II turn after turn and it didn't take long to learn III. Same goes for Wind Shear II, I used it like 40 or 50 times over the span of maybe 20-30 battles broken up with other mystic / combat arts and eventually it levelled up to III. I think there is a penalty / bonus system for chaining an art usage, much like chaining battles. Mikeyakame 13:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC) ::You know, while playing the game i feel exactly the same. Now that i'm messing around with the numbers i'm not so sure anymore, i'm starting to believe that it takes the exact same amount of uses whether broken up or in one go, it just feels like it's taking forever :D We'll see when i get to the end of it! Drake178 13:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC) Data Table Art Level Up Username: mikeyakame Mikeyakame 10:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC) Username: drake178 Drake178 09:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC) Nimble/Mighty It takes 22 uses of a combat art with a weapon of the same modifier to upgrade it to Nimble or Mighty (increasing ranks at the same time makes no difference). When switching to a different type weapon these modifiers need to be unlearned before the other one is learned, this takes the same amount of uses of the art as it took to get the modifier, even if it does not have the effect yet (ie. 16 uses of Double Strike with a speed modifier weapon takes 16 uses of Double Strike with a strength modifier one to undo). The exact number may vary (i tested it with spears at BR 87-90 on the XBOX), but the basic rule should be the same. Drake178 11:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC) :I noticed something similar too mate. About the learning / unlearning when you switch between weapons with speed or strength modifiers. Mikeyakame 13:00, 8 June 2009 (UTC)